User talk:Teberald

Bolivia

Do you happen to be from Bolivia?--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 04:34, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

And Welcome to Wikipedia

Sorry if I seemed to be aggressive towards you in the Spanish Wikipedia. I like to keep WP relationships at a very formal tone. I notice that the Spanish WP has several cordialities among the users, but I do not like to use them. That being said, I do hope you decide to stay and contribute to the project. I asked you the question about Bolivia because not many users from Bolivia ever come here to Wikipedia, and your point of view on matters is heavily required on different articles here in the English project.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 04:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the potato. I've read the sources, and at some point they all worked. I am not sure why the article from the Potato Center is now a dead link, but it happens (internet sources are not as "viable" as one could hope). However, this source ([1]) should answer your question and hopefully prevent any pointless discussion in the potato article. If you do want to discuss the matter there even after reading the source, then you have every right to do so; however, I believe the source I provided to you is strong and will hold even on its own. Best regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 04:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Apology accepted, I hope you do know that I don't have any hard feelings I think we're just discussing about the topics of the articles and I’d like to remain that way I never seen any use in taking things personally, To solve your doubt I’m “in” Bolivia but I’m not “from” Bolivia I just came to give a brief course and conduct some researches.

The sources for the Potato are far more lengthy and complex so I think I should review them with more time and provide my feedback; however I think that could be expanded, the thing I observe here is that first the abstract itself says that these progenitors “have long been in dispute” so it makes me think there is a an ongoing academic debate about whether it’s monophyletic, paraphyletic or polyphyletic, this article in particular suggests its monophyletic and the S.brevicaule complex is traced in Peru, I should read the whole article to know if it means really only Peru or means that their cladistic division was made within the frontier of Peru and Bolivia but they meant Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, parts of Brazil to western Venezuela or really meant only Peru, I’ll check that. Besides there is a reason why academic texts always are careful with their words and never say directly “it was originated in Peru” but say “our data support a monophyletic origin of the landrace cultivars from the northern component of this complex in Peru” and I really think that Wikipedia articles should also follow that carefulness. I think this and the other references aren’t really used while they could provide more insightful information. The paragraph about history – Peru is very reduced compared to the Europe part. However I think that needs more reading and this time there is plenty of information so I’ll see what I can find. Teberald (talk) 05:29, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember writing an explanation for this on the second paragraph of the article. Apparently, it was believe that potato's origin was at separate places at once, but recent evidence has shown that southern Peru is the place where the tuber first started. Well, I don't think it's "recent" anymore (it's been quite a few years since the research came out). Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 14:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I collected several articles on the matter, it's quite interesting but I think I have some reading to do, I don't want to rush. But I did read the article you showed me and it has a comment about the frontiers:

"The topology of the entire data set is in concordance with the morphological (21), RAPD, and RFLP results (22) in defining a northern (species from Peru, together with S. achacachense from northern Bolivia) and southern (species from Bolivia and northern Argentina) clade of the S. brevicaule complex. This geographic split does not exactly follow country borders, but very closely so. For example, the northern clade contains S. achacachense PI 558032 from the department of La Paz, Bolivia bordering Peru, and the southern clade contains S. leptophyes PI 458378 from the department of Puno bordering Bolivia."

That's on page 14695 so the S. brevicaule contains species from the Bolivian department of La Paz, together with species from Puno, the classification they made was more to simplify their job but doesn't necessarily indicates that the S. brevicaule is exclusively from Peru and no other country. To resume it a little I think it's widely believed that the S. brevicaule was the first domesticated branch of the potato, this class is subdivided into northern (around Lake Titicaca, Tiwanaku civilization perhaps?) and southern which is around the chaco Tarija, northern Argentina etc. this article suggests that the original branch is the northern one. I also particularly lean more to the hypotheses of the monophyletic origins, but I believe I read somewhere that there are some authors still not convinced, usually scientific debates of this kind aren't solved quickly they are being held for decades or even centuries. But this is not my field so I should read more to know the state of that. Teberald (talk) 01:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a scientist either, but the purpose of the Abstract is to explain the project to anyone who reads it (laymen included). As logical or illogical something may seem (as in southern Peru being right next to Bolivia), we cannot go beyond what the source tells us. In this case the source is specifically stating that southern Peru is the place where this tuber first appeared; this source even goes as far as to deny the past "multiple origins" claim. IMO, either the author is really confident about his finding, or he just simply wants to get into an argument with someone (but that is a thought aside). If you find evidence that the debate is still ongoing, then that would certainly be good to include into the article. I recommend you check the dates when browsing the information. Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 02:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The abstract is to resume what the article is about so when you are conducting a research you just read it and see if the article is helpful or not, but does not overrule what the article itself says and I just quoted the source itself says: "For example, the northern clade contains S. achacachense PI 558032 from the department of La Paz, Bolivia bordering Peru, and the southern clade contains S. leptophyes PI 458378 from the department of Puno bordering Bolivia." for me it's quite clear, if for you that's not clear enough we can go again and ask other people to interpret that for us. The other thing I'm just informing you of what I collected (I didn't read anything yet) so I don't want to rush to any conclusion, those are two separated topics. Teberald (talk) 02:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You really should take this to the Talk:Potato page and ask for input from other editors. A scientist should catch your post and provide you more information on it. As to the Abstract, I have written several of them as well, and I know that they cannot contradict the information found within the project itself. Of course, that is assuming the work of this person has been peer-reviewed.

My understanding of the quote you provide is that the north-south divide is exactly on the Peru-Bolivia border (which is awkward). That's why he uses the terms "bordering Peru" and "bordering Bolivia". But that is my understanding of it, which is further sustained by what the Abstract tells us. If you want, we can go either to the third opinion place (which is generally fast), the language board (however, last time they didn't really seem to care much about the topic), or the Talk:Potato page (nonetheless, the answer could take a bit longer). Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 02:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe it'd be the most adequate thing to do, I think SmartSE is a biologist so maybe he’s more acknowledged in the topic. I’m also a professor like I said before and I have written several articles so I know what an abstract is. But I don’t think the author is really contradicting himself, what I read is that the division between north and south is made further south not exactly in the frontier, but nearby, so it contains a branch from La Paz that belongs to the north it says so in the first quote... "in defining a northern (species from Peru, together with S. achacachense from northern Bolivia)", the other branches belong to the southern cut. First I’ll point that, forget about the monophyletic matter, but really I think I need to read more, I want to be sure of all those things so I need a couple of days to read compile information I’m just sharing with you my findings in a friendly way, I have no "formal" opinion on this matter yet. I don’t think it’s a Language Desk issue, I believe the right thing to do is to consult first in the article, it’s a common article with several editors so there would be more community to share insights than in salchipapa. So meanwhile I’ll take a break and read and I’ll keep you informed. Cheers. Teberald (talk) 03:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Potato

Thank you for bringing the matter into the Talk:Potato page. Hopefully it will encourage a good discussion on the subject (and get the attention of experts). It's a great step towards improving the article. Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:37, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Editor's Barnstar
	I hereby award you this barnstar for your improvements in the Potato article. Contacting professionals, properly using talk pages and other wiki resources, and simply focusing on improving the quality of an article. Truly an example of how to correctly edit an article. MarshalN20 | Talk 02:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, +1 to that. If you're interested (botany might be more your thing) there's WikiProject Agriculture with lots more such articles in need of attention. Thanks, Steven Walling • talk 02:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Marshal for your kind words and your overall guidance since the first day, you helped me to get started with Wikipedia and I definitely got more interested in continuing here. And also thank you Steven I'll try to help with that project, seems really interesting. --Teberald (talk) 03:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)